As a reminder, the blogging will focus on some key issues from the Scott text. Please read my instructions for Blogging in Blackboard.
The scenario given on page 1 and ending on page 2 indicates that the principal knew exactly who the problem students were. What is the significance of knowing this information? Please elaborate. Splichal
The Principal is the one that is in charge of their school. They help make the school environment safe for all the students as well as the faculty and staff. If the Principal doesn't back up the school then there is no telling what may happen. Since the Principal easily knew what was going on outside on the playground he/she should have done something about it the first time there was an incident. By eliminating the problem from the start then these students wouldn't have been throwing rocks again and wouldn't be in the principals office for the same punishment.
Since the principal already knew who the offenders were before she even had to be told means they are repeat offenders. She’s had them serve detentions for bad behavior before and it’s obviously not working. Students need to be made aware of expectations so they have guidelines for accepatable and appropriate behavior. Prevention is the key to proactive management and it begins be clearly stating rules and expectations followed by a series of consequences. Why were the rocks being thrown? That is the root of the problem. Identify what caused the behavior to occur. Maybe that portion of the playground should be off limits. The teacher on duty could try to encourage a game to be played or if certain students are known “trouble makers” closer attention should be paid to where they are and what they are doing so they don’t have an opportunity to misbehave. Strategies should be used that prevent behavior problems. This can be a tiered system were increasingly smaller numbers of students reach a tertiary level of prevention where intensive interventions are put in place because the student is not responding to traditional methods of intervention. It sounds like the students involved in the rock throwing incident may be ready for this level.
I wonder how many teachers were supervising the playground at the time of the rock throwing? MS Hawkins was the only teacher mentioned in the scenario. A good preventive may be to have more teachers supervising the playground. I agree with Amy that perhaps that portion of the playground should be off limits for children.
I agree, that if Ms. Hawkins was the only teacher outside supervising, that at least one other teacher needs to be helping too. Stretching one teachers abilities to supervise the entire playground is a little much, especially if the children are younger and need help swinging and getting on and off the equipment.
This means that since she knew who the students were and guessed the reasoning behind why they were in her office, she has dealt with them multiple times before. They should not be left unsupervised and the area around the trees should be fenced off or at least made inaccessible to the students, not just the ones who continually go behind them. Maybe the kids, who are getting into trouble, should be kept inside during recess time, doing extra work or helping in the cafeteria, until they can understand and be trusted to go out on the playground, without doing harm to others or they need to be individually supervised, while outside. Either way, the current punishment isn’t working and a different approach needs to be taken.
A differnt approach definitely needs to be taken. If this incident had happened at my currrent school, we six Kindergarten teachers would discuss the playground situation and would have come up with a group plan of action, and would have taken our proposed plan to the Principal. If the children throwing rocks had been in our classes, I guarantee that the child would have been talking on the phone to their parents. I imagine they would also have spent a lot of time writing and presenting letters of apology to those who's cars rocks were thrown at. That would have put the incident full circle and hopfully would have ended the rock throwing. I am fortunate to have a Principal who trusts me to handle situations such as the one above. I always e-mail my Principal and our Councelor when I had to contact parents, or when a child is suddenly acting out, along with what I did to try and correct the situation. I get back in e-mail or in person advice, congradulations or just a thank you for keeping him in the loop. Perhaps the Principal in this situaiton needs to empower/train her staff how to handle their own situaitons. ( After she gets trained) My Principal and Councelor deal with the 1-5% of the students in my school who can be violent, They work hard to try to keep these children in regualr classrooms. I am really fortunate to not have to work with such a short sighted Principal as the one in this scenario. It reminds me of my favortie saying, "If you always do what you always have done (detention), you will always get what you have always gotten. " (failure)
I really enjoyed reading this post. I think it's great that you have a Principal that values and appreciates that open line of communication and it sounds like you take a lot of extra steps to make sure you are keeping everyone in the loop. I agree with you on your quote as well and not always doing the same thing to discipline, when it is obviously not working.
Cindy, great quote! I have seen this situation play out at the school I work at as a play ground supervisor and para. The students have all been talked to in the classroom about throwing rocks at cars on the playground because this always becomes an issue at least once every year. Therefore, the students know the consequences of their actions if they throw rocks at cars. First, the student goes to the principles office. Second, the student calls their parents and tells them what they did on the playground. Third, they write an apology letter the owner of the vehicle. The example in the book shows me that the students are repeat offenders because of the immediate response of the staff. Although I think this is a goood rule of thumb (handling situations immediately), many times the "bad" student can be harshly accused of things they may not have done simply because of their past behavior. I think that this is a key point in the disciple of the student. Talking through the consequences of past mistakes can lead to future consequences and thus labeled negatively.
Jena is correct that sometimes the students we are working hard to keep in our classroom become targets throughout the school when things go wrong. This year my Principal and I worked hard to keep one of my children in my classrom and out of the Behavior Room. This child had the potential of hitting me, throwing chairs and destroying my room. I had learned that when he started to show unwanted behaviors, such as clowning around, not doing what I asked of him that it was time for him to go on what I called a walk a bout. I sent this child on a task to a pre determined teacher or secretarty. I have sent him with pencils, letters, etc. This act of helping me always brought him back to my class refocused and ready to learn. I shared this new found method with other teachers who delt with this child. I also shared that the Behavior Teacher had placed the child on an individual sticker system. The goal was for him to get through various parts of his day without having a tantrum and having to be removed from the room he was in. I dreaded him going to one enrichment teacher each week. She had a tendency to get in his face and provoke responses from him. My Principal was able to get her to change her approach after he attacked her one day. If you provoke a Lion, he will bite. Back to the Scenario: I would have made certain that the correct children were charged with the rock throwing crime.
Yes Cindy, I applaud your efforts on trying to keep your student in the classroom as much as possible. In my limited experience as a behavior Para I have come to understand that some times leaving the room is the best possible solution for the sake of the other 20 students who want to learn. In my opinion the best environment is in the regular classroom for a variety of reasons including the socialization of the student as well as real world experience for the other students. Scenario: Charging the correct students with the rock throwing is vital but this takes eyes in the back of my head... Mr. Splichal can you help me with this? Smile!
Jena I agree, sending the student out of the classroom is not ideal in the middle of instruction. However, I do believe there are times sending the student allows for the best optimal learning experience. The unwanted behavior was proactively eliminated and the other 20 continued instruction without incident. I question weather this choice will become a learned behavior for the student when he/she wants to leave the class. Cindy, how long did you use this method? Did you see any evidence that the student was abusing the opportunity to leave the room?
Since I got to know this child very very well, I could predict with very good accuracy when the child was heading towards a tantrum. When all efforts to direct his behavior towards positives failed, I sent him on walk a bout. My Director of Special Education and my Principal jointly suggested trying this technique at a staffing to update his school wide behavior plan. I used this technique with success maybe two or three times per week on average for four months. The child was in Kindergarten and never realized he was doing anything but helping his teacher, since the technique was not abused by his teacher.
Cindy, It sounds like you have a wealth of experience to draw on. I'm curious, where the cues that helped you predict an eminent tantrum related to the students body language and behavior or were they more closely related to environmental or situational factors? Also, would you say that you developed any hypotheses as to the function of the behavior? What was this student getting out of these tantrums?
Jared, One of the first cues was when he appeared to be doing the opposite of what I had asked the class to do doing group instruction. It was unusual for him, in my class, to not follow directions. The next cue was clowning around, such as taking everything out of his pencil container and placing the container on his head. I usually sent him on walkabout before the next cue, which was either throwing his reading or Math book on the floor and saying he was not going to do anything else in very colorful language, or saying very very inappropriate things to the children sitting at his table using very colorful language. You can guess that the next thing that would happen was the tantrum. When this child gets mad, he forgets about all social connections that he has made and anyone can get hurt. He literally goes into a rage. I had a great connections with this child and made the mistake of catching his pencil cup during the third cue one day. I got punched in the stomach, which I considered my fault for touching his pencil cup while he was in a rage. This happened after I had gotten out of my wheelchair at the end of the year. I appear to be able to bond with the child who chooses one teacher out of the entire building to be "his teacher". I dread the day that one of these children is placed in my class and I am not the favored teacher! Jared, I wish I knew what this child was getting out of these tantrums. I could never determine why he would have such dramatic changes in behavior. I know he was a drug baby in foster care with a relative. Who knows what his 5 years of life have been like. I am hoping that this class can help me with that quesiton.
Also... The chld never fell behind due to the walk a bout. I love having volunteers in my class, and this past year I had one full time community volunteer and 4 college volunteers. Either a volunteer or myself caught the student up when he returned to class. Walk a bout was much better than letting him escalate and having to remove the remaining 24 children while the Behavior Teacher delt with the thrown equipment, chairs and the tantrum. I refuse to leave an audience that could get hurt during his severe tantrums. I am also going to share that I started shcool this past year in a wheelchair with a broken ankle with 25 Kindergarten children, and it ended up being one of the best years out of the six that I have been teaching in a public school system.
Cindy, Wow! You are one brave person taking on 25 Kindergarten students with a broken ankle and wheelchair. It sounds like you have a great amount of support in your classroom and throughout your school. I am a Para in a special needs preschool and we have used "walks" for cool down/distractions for students approaching melt down mode. I am very fortunate to work with a wonderful teacher who I think really does have eyes in the back of her head because she doesn't miss a thing that happens with our kiddos. She has helped me to pick up on ques and actions that are signs that a child is getting close to having a full blown tantrum. Since I am working with preschoolers we have to send an adult with the child on their walk, this is a great time to talk one on one with the student and sometimes leads to them telling you what the problem was that was causing the tantrum.
Jena, to try and shed some light............haha You asked for it. I think some of you are missing the point here. It is not about the lack of supervision or what to do with the kids AFTER the incident. The author is suggesting a different approach to behavior remediation if you read further. I believe Cindy said one thing that hit the nail on the head. She said, "Since I got to know this child very well..."
That is what it is all about here. If we KNOW our children, we can begin to really teach. Teach subject material as well as teaching correct behaviors. Once we can begin to establish what motivates our children, the "teaching" becomes the "control."
If the principal in the scenario knew who the trouble children were, then the incident should NOT have been repeated.
NEW DIRECTION here:
Based on what we have discussed so far, how is this scenario directly related to Learned Behavior as explained on pages 16 and 17?
The scenario is related to learned behavior by the face that the students continued to do something that was not followed by positive outcomes. The students however are not learning anything from the consequences. Other students however may be learning from the consequences of others. What not to do. The students who got in trouble received positive reactions from their peers most likely. The students seem to have disregard for what consequences the adults are giving them.
The principal's familiarity with the rock throwing culprits suggests that this behavior is recurring. A functional model of behavior would assert that the learned behavior is being repeated because it results in a "positive" outcome. A functional behavior assessment could help determine the reinforcing outcome, or function, of the behavior. In the case of the rock throwers, I suppose that the function could be sensory (i.e. the clank of the rock against a car) or in the form of attention and desirable responses from others. Assuming that the principal and teacher are able to do better than these vague guesses, they could tailor their response to the observed function. Exactly how to do that remains a mystery to me, but I look forward to having the mystery revealed over the course of our discussion and in the remaining pages of our text.
"When asked these children can easily recite all the particulars of desirable behavior and are rewarded with adult praise. However, these behaviors are to displayed by the children because there is no followthrough from adults to link verbal behavior to actions." (page 17) The principal new who the students were and knew the offense. Obviously, the students knew they had been caught doing this before and could get away with it. The thrill and encouragement from their friends must outweigh the consequences being presented by the principal.
Tiffany, I completely agree with you. It seems that the teacher and principal have not given the "rock throwers" a serious enough consequence to their actions, therefore, they have repeated it continually, thinking that its "cool" and not stopping because the consequences were never set it place by the principal, who is in charge and should take these types of matters into their own hands. One good way of making sure this doesn't happen again is to take recess away from the children who repeat offenses like this, or make sure that these specific children do not play in the same area where all the rocks have been thrown at cars. More teacher supervision would also fix this problem, because seeing it before it happens would in turn prevent any further damage from happening.
The children’s rock throwing is a learned behavior which is being repeated because it is resulting in a positive outcome for the children. These children have learned to not listen to adults, due to a lack of experiencing consequences that directly relate to the no rock-throwing rule that they were given. If they know what the punishment is ahead of time (detention), and that puishment is not a negative to them; it becomes worth doing in order to receive the attention they apparently desire. There needs to be a change in the punishment that more directly relates to the unwanted behavior, such as facing the car owners with apologies.
I wonder if there is a way to not just overwhelm the positive outcome with a more salient negative one, but to actually remove or dissolve the current function of the behavior. In this case I guess that would mean changing the environment such that peer attention for rock throwing is simply not available. I should add that I began this entry with " I wonder" not as a way to introduce a hypothetical question, but because I genuinely don't know how one would go about doing this.
I see your point Jared. Changing the environment by fencing off the rocks would eliminate the situation. That solution would depend on available school funds to buy fencing. I would still make the children write and present letters of apology. This idea is positive in nature. The child will see that there are people attached to those cars and they would probably hear from the owners themselves during these presentations that throwing rocks is wrong. This punishment would probably be viewed as a negative to the child, yet they are learning lifeskill lessons. I remember my son hitting a golf ball and denting a neighbors car at the age of 10. He did this after I instructed him to only use wiffle balls. He had to go tell the neighbor what happened and ended up doing chores for this neighbor, including washing the car he had hit with the ball; until his bill was paid off. He did not enjoy the extra work so the punishment was negative for him. My youngest boy, who likes to imitate his older brother also learned a valuable lesson from watching his brother go through the consequences of his actions. Back to the senario: I imagine that fence or no fence, many children who might have learned to throw rocks from this group of rock throwing students would think twice if they had to interact with the owners of those cars!
These children continue to throw rocks not because they don't know any better, but because they have done it before without any consequence, so they feel that they can keep doing it and will probably expect the same results as before. As teachers and principals, it is our duties to make sure that the children we teach know right from wrong, and when a wrong is made, how it is handled and resolved. As I said in my post to Tiffany, a couple great ways to make sure this offense does not happen again is to a) take recess away from the "rock throwers" for a time, b) be sure that the "rock throwers" do not play in the area where rocks were being thrown, or c) have more teacher supervision on the playground to avoid this type of accident from happening again, or d) removing the rocks altogether to prevent any rock throwing in the future. Any of these suggestions would stop repeat offenders from throwing more rocks, and would also stop other students from joining in on the "fun."
I agree with you that the students need to taught right from wrong. One thing that I struggle with is whether or not to take away recess. Many of the teachers at the school that I work at use recess as a bargaining mechanism, taking away minutes for poor behavior during the day. While it definitely gets the attention of the students, I don't know that it's the answer. Recess time is vital for students to socially interact with one another, get out some built-up energy and to get much needed exercise. For those reasons, I think it's extremely important to keep all of the recess time. However, where I struggle is that there never seems to be enough time in the day to take other consequential actions with the students without losing some instruction time. Does anyone else share this sentiment?
I do agree that taking away from recess time probably isn't the best punishment, especially since recess is a vital part of a young person's life. However, like you said, you could take away minutes if needed. I think when I was in elementary school, if someone was being mean to another student or was doing something they knew to be wrong, a teacher or other supervisor would have that child sit in the corner or "time out" for a specific amount of time. Other than that, Im not sure what other consequences would really get a child's attention. I know that children of any age value friendship the highest, so taking away any time from that will hopefully get their attention, and make them not want to be put in time-out again.
After reading through the textbook, this playground incident appears to be a learned behavior. At some point, these students saw someone else throwing rocks at cars in which provoked a positive response such as laughter from other students. To intervene an incident like this, I think the students need to be redirected in to a group activity or game. While I think that they need to be reprimanded in some way, I also think that their attention just needs refocused into something more productive. I'm sure going forward, like most teachers would do, Ms. Hawkins will be paying closer attention to see if the activity happens again, so she may be able to prevent it from even beginning in the future.
In raising five children, being a substitute teacher for 7 years and a para educator for 2 years, one thing I have learned is that consistency paves the way for a child to understand what lines can and cannot be crossed. I have caught myself at times not following through with consequences for unwanted behavior, only to have to spend double the time regaining lost ground. Knowing your child or student allows you the advantage of keeping them in safe and secure boundaries. A consequence that is effective for one child will not necessarily work with another. Some children only need "the look" to change an unwanted behavior, while another child will need to sit in time out or miss recess and have a meeting with his/her parents before coming to the realization that the behavior is not only undesirable, but will not be tolerated. I am reminded of a time when I heard a family counselor discussing the fact that you can be sure, when you draw a line, Johnny or Suzie will definitely see how far they can get their big toe over the line. Setting boundaries and staying consistent with consequences will go far in a home or classroom setting.
I'm catching up late, so this might be a long post . . .or maybe not. Technically, I'm a high school algebra teacher and thought I'd take this class to work on getting elementary certified. I taught 5 years immediately following college, then worked in an educational organization for the next 14 years, stayed home to be a mom for 3 years and just re-entered the classroom again. My first thought on reading the books and reviewing the posts is WHOA! what have gotten myself into?? It has been WAY too many years since I've had to think about educational theories on classroom discipline. And high school is a little different: we do have discipline issues, but usually they are far a few between. Oh, I might mention also that I now teach in a private school so yes, still some discipline issues, but if parents are paying to send a kid to school, the kids usually know they need to be on their best behavior! With that said, here's a few thoughts. . .
The initial question posed by Mr. Splichal was "what is the significance of knowing?" And my first thought immediately was the principal KNOWS his students. THAT is of the utmost importance! I love the fact that my 9-year-old goes to school and her principal knows that she (my daughter) loves to sing, and play soccer and that her little sister is going to start kindergarten next year and that we have a pet dog! And no, the principal isn't a personal friend of mine but the principal DOES truly make an effort to get to know every student in the school - good or bad. Now the question I would pose back to anyone willing to respond is has the principal used the "knowing' to actually connect with the students are doing the inappropriate deeds? See, I believe that the key is connections. When I meet a student, or even a new friend/acquaintance, I always try to find a connection - something that bonds us and something that we can pull from one another to make a connection. Ms. Olsen knows immediately who the culprits were/are - the key I believe is to find that piece that gives them common ground so she can relate to the students and reach the why (were they bored?) and together find an alternative to the misbehavior (let's walk laps instead? Let's throw rocks in a circle and see who gets the most rocks to land in the target zone.)
The other thing that I find interesting in the reading, but also particularly because of the past year that I had teaching basic algebra to low level kids . . . (remember, I've been out of the classroom awhile!) is maybe not 'learned' behaviors but rather, 'expected' behaviors. It's true if you walk into any school and randomly ask students to name three trouble makers, names would inevitable be repeated. My class of eight this year had three such students whose names would probably have been mentioned nearly by any freshman student. (So much so that when one of my other classes asked who was in my 6th hour class and I named the students the KIDS' response was "that's like a teacher's worst nightmare!") In any case, if students have been 'labeled' with that label, then they often feel they have to live up to it. So a part of me is frustrated that the principal knew who it was and was able to comment, "Let me guess who". It's almost as if the principal was expecting the students to throw rocks 'again'. So again, I truly believe that as a teacher (or principal) it is absolutely vital that we "KNOW" our students, connect with them, find a common ground so there is a link and a personal involvement on behalf of the student and the teacher.
You really covered this well. I recall when I was a substitute teacher that the homeroom teacher would leave a note, and on the note would be a list of "trouble makers". However, my outlook was to not treat them nor act like they would cause me trouble. I would let the class know right off that I would be forming my own opinion of each one of them. Surprisingly, I rarely had a problem. In fact, when I had a long term subbing position the principal would come to my class and ask, "is so and so ok?" My response would be, "yes". He was surprised. I let this student know that I did not come into class expecting him to act out. I told him I believed he would be just fine. After the job was complete I am overjoyed to say this student and I connected and he was one of the most helpful students during this time. Also, he would stop by my house on his way home from school to say "hey". So, I really appreciate you bringing up this side of what students feel may be expected of them when they are labeled.
In reading through the post I am struck with why does the principal keep giving detention instead of making the discipline harder? Is this because she doesn't want to upset the parents are they heavy hitters in the school system or what is the deal? In the school that I work at this repeated behavior would have resulted in out of school suspension and it doesn't matter if your a Kindergartner or in High school. This is definitely a case of learned behavior these students have learned that they will only get detention for their actions, something they obviously don't mind. They have also learned that they can go to certain areas on the playground where supervision is less. If I was the teachers on the playground I would not allow this certain group to play outside of a given area say the basketball court or the swings. If they could do this and stay out of trouble then I might give privileges back a little at a time but it would have to be proven, trust is a two way street and it has to be earned not just given. I do agree with some of the earlier post that the best way to get the results that you want is through building relationships with the students a student will not care what you have to teach them until they know you care about them.
Angie I agree. Back at my old high school in a little town where my graduating class was 42. We had the problem with certain people needed to have the right last name in order to get what they want. When it came to sports or just the classroom the "right name" would have it easy or have more playing time. They hardly ever got in trouble. But when someone else messed up the same way they would get punished. A Principal shouldn't have to worry about which parents get mad because of their child acting up. Every student should be treated the same. And since the rock throwing problem has been going on; after the first time the Principal should have had some kids suspended.
I actually had a past Principal put me in a very sticky situation because of a name game issue. A particular student that I had as a Para-educator did not have the correct name and did get into trouble a lot but he was also the kid that if he got caught he owned it, the principal accused him of leaving school early I didn't think he did so I asked him them went to the classroom teacher and asked if he ditched after I had left class the teacher and the student both confirmed separate from each other that he had not skipped, leaving me to go back to my boss and basically call the school principal a liar, not the best situation. I guess what I am getting at here is the principal essentially answers to the board but they only meet monthly I think that there should be some kind of second opinion or other authority (assistant principal---which our budget has cut) so that if you have repeat offenders it wouldn't be so easy to let them off the hook. Do you that are involved in other school still have assistant principal or does your counselor act as the second voice or none at all? Just curious!
Gloria, it is sad that in some districts students are treated differently because of a last name or family status in the community. In order to change this, it begins with us. Every student must be given the consequence that was laid out at the beginning of the year. That is the importance of establishing a discipline policy and making sure the students are aware of it. As Donna covered a few posts up, it is often the label of being a "bad" student that enables these students to do just that. In my experience working as a paraprofessional in a large high school, simply telling the student that you don't expect any more out of them than you do the other students can help them refocus. I feel in order to help correct bad learned behavior, we need to understand the student's situation. Every student's situation is completely different! I know the principal knows how these particular students act, but I wonder if she really knows the students. In this office visits, is the principal calmly discussing the "whys" of the situation? My father was a Jr. High principal before becoming a superintendent. His strategy was to simply listen. In most cases, one, if not many, of the students are acting out to relieve stress, pressure, or anger. The student may spend a lengthy amount of time in the office but ultimately, forming a relationship helps prevent future behavior. This is true for the teacher also. Checking back regularly to show care for the student can help to discourage future bad behavior. This learned behavior can also become "unlearned".
I agree I think it all goes back to the quote "A child will not care what you know, until they know you care" relationships have to be formed before you will truly get anything out of anyone that includes children and adults. People are more willing as a whole to do their best for you if they know you will do yours for them in any situation. I agree that we don't always know what goes on in the administrations office but I still go back to sometimes as the principal your worn down with repeat offenders also and sometimes doing the minimum could be easier then finding a different approach. I could never do the administration job I think it has to be the most unappreciated and hardest job in education so I applaud your father for taking on that challenge
The children learned that if no one was paying attention to them over at the trees in the field throwing rocks they could get away with it. Since the consequence was after school detention this did not really solve the problem. These children could have been told to stay out of the specific area where they were throwing the rocks. Also the person in charge of recess could have been told to make sure that these students stayed out of the area where the incident took place.
With every human being there is a judgement of people, sometimes before we even meet them. Teachers and administrators have this as well. It may not be a good thing, but it happens. The students who were throwing rocks knew darn well what they were doing and that it was wrong. Most often they didn't care. A lot of students just don't see anything wrong with doing wrong things. They know the consequences and frankly, the consequences just weren't effective. The teachers and administrators do the cycle over and over again hoping there will be a break. Sometimes it's just out of laziness. If there were normally good kids in that bunch, they might possibly feel the effects and not do it again. Peer pressure is an amazing thing. There is a 50% chance the consequences will have the effect that is intended, but since they've already gotten in "trouble" for this, it most likely won't make a difference. Someone will have to come up with a harsher plan, perhaps including parents if they are able. It's frustrating because I have worked in the school system where this happens often. The consequences just don't work that are in place.
For some reason my last comment didn't get published so here goes again. Losing recess and serving a detention is a valid punishment for their actions. However, there are other ways to discipline more successfully. Having the guilty students face the car owner is a good start. They didn't think of their actions as affecting someone real. They only thought of their own actions and enjoyment. They lacked honor and self-restraint. Knowing that they damage real property belonging to a real person will help them reflect effectively. I would not be opposed to possible suspension from school as well, seeing that their actions could bring legal consequences. I would involve the parents in this case. Consistency between school discipline and home discipline are very important.
However, as I said, there are more effective ways for future recesses. The word "discipline" is related to "disciple". Beyond the religious connotation, a disciple is someone committed to an idea or person in an honorable way. These students were not committed to anything honorable. That needs to be rebuilt (or, seemingly, built in the first place). Have a recess is not honorable. Using it is. Before they have another recess, these students should make their activities known before going outside, VERBALLY COMMIT to the recess activity (which could come from them or from the teacher), and carry out the activity honorably and honestly. Make sure they know that if they break their commitment, then they have chosen to receive discipline from the school officials. After the recess is done and they have hopefully fulfilled their commitment, then they should go visit the principal and explain how they have planned and proved a more positive recess experience. Visiting the principal isn't an automatic sign of trouble. Going and telling him how they have behaved positively is a start in the right direction. I have heard that it takes 12 positive encounters to make up for one negative encounters among friends, bosses, teachers, etc. They would be going to see him with a success story instead of him having to find them to punish them. Repeat this "planning/committing/fulfilling/reporting to the principal" approach to recess until they naturally plan their recess activity. His frustration with them will subside as he learns that they value their playground time as well as his position of authority. It would be beneficial for them to spend their current detention time in the presence of the principal to see him do committed work as an example of his self-disciple, which they need to emulate. That way, they appropriately can be self-disciplined disciples who still have recess privileges.
Good Comments Andy! I liked your suggestions and different approach to teaching these rock throwing children how to carry out an activity in an honest and honorable way. These children must not have had similar experiences at home to teach them respect, responsibility and follow through. I plan to tuck your suggestion in my "bag of tricks", and pull it out as a need arises. My Principal will be happy to help, as he is always requesting me to tell him of positives that happen in my classroom involving students he has gotten to know in his office. He has many times called the student to his office to talk with them about something positive that they have done. Many times the students are smiling from ear ro ear when they return from his office after one of these positive encounters.
Love your comment Andy. I love this positive approach and can see how the repeated positive comments would be a way of encouraging good behavior rather than the negative or bad behavior. Lifting a student/child up and praising them in front of their peers is a way of changing a students life. As a teacher we can be a source of pushing them in the right direction or heaven forbid in the wrong direction.
I didn't include this story in my previous blog because I didn't want it to go too long and lose its luster. I have personal proof of how my suggestion has actually worked for me in the real world.
When I was in high school, I worked summer on the grounds crew for Wisconsin State Fair Park in Milwaukee. Throughout the summer there were small fairs, festivals, and events using the grounds besides the actual state fair in August. Our job was to set up and take down before and after events in the buildings and outdoors on the grounds and at the Milwaukee Mile racetrack grandstands. Anyhoo, we had a supervisor named Terry who liked to give the new/young workers the crummiest jobs. I think he was in charge of rooting out the poor workers in the place. He did a good job :P. I figured this out about him and thought about how to make the work relationship better. Many of us were getting tired of work orders that we knew that he knew were onerous. The work orders were so unlikeable that many of the other guys dragged their feet on the job so that we wouldn't have to endure too many of Terry's terrible tasks. Unfortunately, he realized that we weren't working to our full ability and started coming around during our jobs and telling us to get moving. This made many of the guys want to work less. They devised "the long way around" to get to job areas on the grounds and liked to hide in various buildings after the work order was complete so it took Terry a while to find us. I knew that couldn't go on for any honest length of time. So I made the radical suggestion that after we filled one work order, we should go and try to find Terry to tell him that we were done. They thought I was nuts. They couldn't figure out why I would seek him out because they figured he would just give us more loathsome tasks. But my reason for actively going to Terry was because I thought that if we showed a willingness to report our achievement to him (and for good reason since he was our supervisor), it would prove our worth. I put a twist on it too. Even as lowly workers, we got to know the park grounds really well and we could figure out needed tasks for ourselves just by paying attention to event schedules. So as we sought out Terry after one job, we would talk to each other about other jobs we knew needed doing anyway. Once we found Terry, we reported that one task was done and boldly suggested the next task that we knew needed doing. It worked! Nine times out of ten he would comment on how quickly we finished the task he assigned for us and would agree to our suggested next task. Essentially, we got to choose our own jobs because we put the effort into searching for them. Our willingness to perform was much more successful than hiding between jobs and dragging our feet. Plus, it made Terry's job easier because he didn't have to think up jobs for us anymore. I miss that job.
Welcome everyone.
ReplyDeleteAs a reminder, the blogging will focus on some key issues from the Scott text. Please read my instructions for Blogging in Blackboard.
The scenario given on page 1 and ending on page 2 indicates that the principal knew exactly who the problem students were. What is the significance of knowing this information? Please elaborate. Splichal
The Principal is the one that is in charge of their school. They help make the school environment safe for all the students as well as the faculty and staff. If the Principal doesn't back up the school then there is no telling what may happen.
DeleteSince the Principal easily knew what was going on outside on the playground he/she should have done something about it the first time there was an incident. By eliminating the problem from the start then these students wouldn't have been throwing rocks again and wouldn't be in the principals office for the same punishment.
Since the principal already knew who the offenders were before she even had to be told means they are repeat offenders. She’s had them serve detentions for bad behavior before and it’s obviously not working. Students need to be made aware of expectations so they have guidelines for accepatable and appropriate behavior. Prevention is the key to proactive management and it begins be clearly stating rules and expectations followed by a series of consequences. Why were the rocks being thrown? That is the root of the problem. Identify what caused the behavior to occur. Maybe that portion of the playground should be off limits. The teacher on duty could try to encourage a game to be played or if certain students are known “trouble makers” closer attention should be paid to where they are and what they are doing so they don’t have an opportunity to misbehave. Strategies should be used that prevent behavior problems. This can be a tiered system were increasingly smaller numbers of students reach a tertiary level of prevention where intensive interventions are put in place because the student is not responding to traditional methods of intervention. It sounds like the students involved in the rock throwing incident may be ready for this level.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many teachers were supervising the playground at the time of the rock throwing? MS Hawkins was the only teacher mentioned in the scenario. A good preventive may be to have more teachers supervising the playground. I agree with Amy that perhaps that portion of the playground should be off limits for children.
ReplyDeleteI agree, that if Ms. Hawkins was the only teacher outside supervising, that at least one other teacher needs to be helping too. Stretching one teachers abilities to supervise the entire playground is a little much, especially if the children are younger and need help swinging and getting on and off the equipment.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis means that since she knew who the students were and guessed the reasoning behind why they were in her office, she has dealt with them multiple times before. They should not be left unsupervised and the area around the trees should be fenced off or at least made inaccessible to the students, not just the ones who continually go behind them. Maybe the kids, who are getting into trouble, should be kept inside during recess time, doing extra work or helping in the cafeteria, until they can understand and be trusted to go out on the playground, without doing harm to others or they need to be individually supervised, while outside. Either way, the current punishment isn’t working and a different approach needs to be taken.
ReplyDeleteA differnt approach definitely needs to be taken. If this incident had happened at my currrent school, we six Kindergarten teachers would discuss the playground situation and would have come up with a group plan of action, and would have taken our proposed plan to the Principal. If the children throwing rocks had been in our classes, I guarantee that the child would have been talking on the phone to their parents. I imagine they would also have spent a lot of time writing and presenting letters of apology to those who's cars rocks were thrown at. That would have put the incident full circle and hopfully would have ended the rock throwing. I am fortunate to have a Principal who trusts me to handle situations such as the one above. I always e-mail my Principal and our Councelor when I had to contact parents, or when a child is suddenly acting out, along with what I did to try and correct the situation. I get back in e-mail or in person advice, congradulations or just a thank you for keeping him in the loop. Perhaps the Principal in this situaiton needs to empower/train her staff how to handle their own situaitons. ( After she gets trained) My Principal and Councelor deal with the 1-5% of the students in my school who can be violent, They work hard to try to keep these children in regualr classrooms. I am really fortunate to not have to work with such a short sighted Principal as the one in this scenario. It reminds me of my favortie saying, "If you always do what you always have done (detention), you will always get what you have always gotten. " (failure)
ReplyDeleteCindy,
DeleteI really enjoyed reading this post. I think it's great that you have a Principal that values and appreciates that open line of communication and it sounds like you take a lot of extra steps to make sure you are keeping everyone in the loop. I agree with you on your quote as well and not always doing the same thing to discipline, when it is obviously not working.
Carissa
Cindy, great quote! I have seen this situation play out at the school I work at as a play ground supervisor and para. The students have all been talked to in the classroom about throwing rocks at cars on the playground because this always becomes an issue at least once every year. Therefore, the students know the consequences of their actions if they throw rocks at cars. First, the student goes to the principles office. Second, the student calls their parents and tells them what they did on the playground. Third, they write an apology letter the owner of the vehicle.
ReplyDeleteThe example in the book shows me that the students are repeat offenders because of the immediate response of the staff. Although I think this is a goood rule of thumb (handling situations immediately), many times the "bad" student can be harshly accused of things they may not have done simply because of their past behavior. I think that this is a key point in the disciple of the student. Talking through the consequences of past mistakes can lead to future consequences and thus labeled negatively.
Jena is correct that sometimes the students we are working hard to keep in our classroom become targets throughout the school when things go wrong. This year my Principal and I worked hard to keep one of my children in my classrom and out of the Behavior Room. This child had the potential of hitting me, throwing chairs and destroying my room. I had learned that when he started to show unwanted behaviors, such as clowning around, not doing what I asked of him that it was time for him to go on what I called a walk a bout. I sent this child on a task to a pre determined teacher or secretarty. I have sent him with pencils, letters, etc. This act of helping me always brought him back to my class refocused and ready to learn. I shared this new found method with other teachers who delt with this child. I also shared that the Behavior Teacher had placed the child on an individual sticker system. The goal was for him to get through various parts of his day without having a tantrum and having to be removed from the room he was in. I dreaded him going to one enrichment teacher each week. She had a tendency to get in his face and provoke responses from him. My Principal was able to get her to change her approach after he attacked her one day. If you provoke a Lion, he will bite.
DeleteBack to the Scenario: I would have made certain that the correct children were charged with the rock throwing crime.
Yes Cindy, I applaud your efforts on trying to keep your student in the classroom as much as possible. In my limited experience as a behavior Para I have come to understand that some times leaving the room is the best possible solution for the sake of the other 20 students who want to learn. In my opinion the best environment is in the regular classroom for a variety of reasons including the socialization of the student as well as real world experience for the other students.
ReplyDeleteScenario: Charging the correct students with the rock throwing is vital but this takes eyes in the back of my head... Mr. Splichal can you help me with this? Smile!
Jena I agree, sending the student out of the classroom is not ideal in the middle of instruction. However, I do believe there are times sending the student allows for the best optimal learning experience. The unwanted behavior was proactively eliminated and the other 20 continued instruction without incident. I question weather this choice will become a learned behavior for the student when he/she wants to leave the class. Cindy, how long did you use this method? Did you see any evidence that the student was abusing the opportunity to leave the room?
ReplyDeleteSince I got to know this child very very well, I could predict with very good accuracy when the child was heading towards a tantrum. When all efforts to direct his behavior towards positives failed, I sent him on walk a bout. My Director of Special Education and my Principal jointly suggested trying this technique at a staffing to update his school wide behavior plan. I used this technique with success maybe two or three times per week on average for four months. The child was in Kindergarten and never realized he was doing anything but helping his teacher, since the technique was not abused by his teacher.
DeleteCindy,
DeleteIt sounds like you have a wealth of experience to draw on. I'm curious, where the cues that helped you predict an eminent tantrum related to the students body language and behavior or were they more closely related to environmental or situational factors? Also, would you say that you developed any hypotheses as to the function of the behavior? What was this student getting out of these tantrums?
Jared, One of the first cues was when he appeared to be doing the opposite of what I had asked the class to do doing group instruction. It was unusual for him, in my class, to not follow directions. The next cue was clowning around, such as taking everything out of his pencil container and placing the container on his head. I usually sent him on walkabout before the next cue, which was either throwing his reading or Math book on the floor and saying he was not going to do anything else in very colorful language, or saying very very inappropriate things to the children sitting at his table using very colorful language. You can guess that the next thing that would happen was the tantrum. When this child gets mad, he forgets about all social connections that he has made and anyone can get hurt. He literally goes into a rage. I had a great connections with this child and made the mistake of catching his pencil cup during the third cue one day. I got punched in the stomach, which I considered my fault for touching his pencil cup while he was in a rage. This happened after I had gotten out of my wheelchair at the end of the year. I appear to be able to bond with the child who chooses one teacher out of the entire building to be "his teacher". I dread the day that one of these children is placed in my class and I am not the favored teacher!
DeleteJared, I wish I knew what this child was getting out of these tantrums. I could never determine why he would have such dramatic changes in behavior. I know he was a drug baby in foster care with a relative. Who knows what his 5 years of life have been like. I am hoping that this class can help me with that quesiton.
Also... The chld never fell behind due to the walk a bout. I love having volunteers in my class, and this past year I had one full time community volunteer and 4 college volunteers. Either a volunteer or myself caught the student up when he returned to class. Walk a bout was much better than letting him escalate and having to remove the remaining 24 children while the Behavior Teacher delt with the thrown equipment, chairs and the tantrum. I refuse to leave an audience that could get hurt during his severe tantrums. I am also going to share that I started shcool this past year in a wheelchair with a broken ankle with 25 Kindergarten children, and it ended up being one of the best years out of the six that I have been teaching in a public school system.
ReplyDeleteCindy,
ReplyDeleteWow! You are one brave person taking on 25 Kindergarten students with a broken ankle and wheelchair. It sounds like you have a great amount of support in your classroom and throughout your school. I am a Para in a special needs preschool and we have used "walks" for cool down/distractions for students approaching melt down mode. I am very fortunate to work with a wonderful teacher who I think really does have eyes in the back of her head because she doesn't miss a thing that happens with our kiddos. She has helped me to pick up on ques and actions that are signs that a child is getting close to having a full blown tantrum. Since I am working with preschoolers we have to send an adult with the child on their walk, this is a great time to talk one on one with the student and sometimes leads to them telling you what the problem was that was causing the tantrum.
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DeleteHello everyone,
ReplyDeleteJena, to try and shed some light............haha You asked for it.
I think some of you are missing the point here. It is not about the lack of supervision or what to do with the kids AFTER the incident. The author is suggesting a different approach to behavior remediation if you read further. I believe Cindy said one thing that hit the nail on the head. She said, "Since I got to know this child very well..."
That is what it is all about here. If we KNOW our children, we can begin to really teach. Teach subject material as well as teaching correct behaviors. Once we can begin to establish what motivates our children, the "teaching" becomes the "control."
If the principal in the scenario knew who the trouble children were, then the incident should NOT have been repeated.
NEW DIRECTION here:
Based on what we have discussed so far, how is this scenario directly related to Learned Behavior as explained on pages 16 and 17?
Splichal
The scenario is related to learned behavior by the face that the students continued to do something that was not followed by positive outcomes. The students however are not learning anything from the consequences. Other students however may be learning from the consequences of others. What not to do. The students who got in trouble received positive reactions from their peers most likely. The students seem to have disregard for what consequences the adults are giving them.
DeleteThe principal's familiarity with the rock throwing culprits suggests that this behavior is recurring. A functional model of behavior would assert that the learned behavior is being repeated because it results in a "positive" outcome. A functional behavior assessment could help determine the reinforcing outcome, or function, of the behavior. In the case of the rock throwers, I suppose that the function could be sensory (i.e. the clank of the rock against a car) or in the form of attention and desirable responses from others. Assuming that the principal and teacher are able to do better than these vague guesses, they could tailor their response to the observed function. Exactly how to do that remains a mystery to me, but I look forward to having the mystery revealed over the course of our discussion and in the remaining pages of our text.
ReplyDelete"When asked these children can easily recite all the particulars of desirable behavior and are rewarded with adult praise. However, these behaviors are to displayed by the children because there is no followthrough from adults to link verbal behavior to actions." (page 17) The principal new who the students were and knew the offense. Obviously, the students knew they had been caught doing this before and could get away with it. The thrill and encouragement from their friends must outweigh the consequences being presented by the principal.
ReplyDeleteTiffany,
DeleteI completely agree with you. It seems that the teacher and principal have not given the "rock throwers" a serious enough consequence to their actions, therefore, they have repeated it continually, thinking that its "cool" and not stopping because the consequences were never set it place by the principal, who is in charge and should take these types of matters into their own hands. One good way of making sure this doesn't happen again is to take recess away from the children who repeat offenses like this, or make sure that these specific children do not play in the same area where all the rocks have been thrown at cars. More teacher supervision would also fix this problem, because seeing it before it happens would in turn prevent any further damage from happening.
The children’s rock throwing is a learned behavior which is being repeated because it is resulting in a positive outcome for the children. These children have learned to not listen to adults, due to a lack of experiencing consequences that directly relate to the no rock-throwing rule that they were given. If they know what the punishment is ahead of time (detention), and that puishment is not a negative to them; it becomes worth doing in order to receive the attention they apparently desire. There needs to be a change in the punishment that more directly relates to the unwanted behavior, such as facing the car owners with apologies.
ReplyDeleteCindy,
ReplyDeleteI wonder if there is a way to not just overwhelm the positive outcome with a more salient negative one, but to actually remove or dissolve the current function of the behavior. In this case I guess that would mean changing the environment such that peer attention for rock throwing is simply not available. I should add that I began this entry with " I wonder" not as a way to introduce a hypothetical question, but because I genuinely don't know how one would go about doing this.
I see your point Jared. Changing the environment by fencing off the rocks would eliminate the situation. That solution would depend on available school funds to buy fencing. I would still make the children write and present letters of apology. This idea is positive in nature. The child will see that there are people attached to those cars and they would probably hear from the owners themselves during these presentations that throwing rocks is wrong. This punishment would probably be viewed as a negative to the child, yet they are learning lifeskill lessons. I remember my son hitting a golf ball and denting a neighbors car at the age of 10. He did this after I instructed him to only use wiffle balls. He had to go tell the neighbor what happened and ended up doing chores for this neighbor, including washing the car he had hit with the ball; until his bill was paid off. He did not enjoy the extra work so the punishment was negative for him. My youngest boy, who likes to imitate his older brother also learned a valuable lesson from watching his brother go through the consequences of his actions. Back to the senario: I imagine that fence or no fence, many children who might have learned to throw rocks from this group of rock throwing students would think twice if they had to interact with the owners of those cars!
ReplyDeleteThese children continue to throw rocks not because they don't know any better, but because they have done it before without any consequence, so they feel that they can keep doing it and will probably expect the same results as before. As teachers and principals, it is our duties to make sure that the children we teach know right from wrong, and when a wrong is made, how it is handled and resolved. As I said in my post to Tiffany, a couple great ways to make sure this offense does not happen again is to a) take recess away from the "rock throwers" for a time, b) be sure that the "rock throwers" do not play in the area where rocks were being thrown, or c) have more teacher supervision on the playground to avoid this type of accident from happening again, or d) removing the rocks altogether to prevent any rock throwing in the future. Any of these suggestions would stop repeat offenders from throwing more rocks, and would also stop other students from joining in on the "fun."
ReplyDeleteCheri,
DeleteI agree with you that the students need to taught right from wrong. One thing that I struggle with is whether or not to take away recess. Many of the teachers at the school that I work at use recess as a bargaining mechanism, taking away minutes for poor behavior during the day. While it definitely gets the attention of the students, I don't know that it's the answer. Recess time is vital for students to socially interact with one another, get out some built-up energy and to get much needed exercise. For those reasons, I think it's extremely important to keep all of the recess time. However, where I struggle is that there never seems to be enough time in the day to take other consequential actions with the students without losing some instruction time. Does anyone else share this sentiment?
Carissa,
DeleteI do agree that taking away from recess time probably isn't the best punishment, especially since recess is a vital part of a young person's life. However, like you said, you could take away minutes if needed. I think when I was in elementary school, if someone was being mean to another student or was doing something they knew to be wrong, a teacher or other supervisor would have that child sit in the corner or "time out" for a specific amount of time. Other than that, Im not sure what other consequences would really get a child's attention. I know that children of any age value friendship the highest, so taking away any time from that will hopefully get their attention, and make them not want to be put in time-out again.
After reading through the textbook, this playground incident appears to be a learned behavior. At some point, these students saw someone else throwing rocks at cars in which provoked a positive response such as laughter from other students. To intervene an incident like this, I think the students need to be redirected in to a group activity or game. While I think that they need to be reprimanded in some way, I also think that their attention just needs refocused into something more productive. I'm sure going forward, like most teachers would do, Ms. Hawkins will be paying closer attention to see if the activity happens again, so she may be able to prevent it from even beginning in the future.
ReplyDeleteIn raising five children, being a substitute teacher for 7 years and a para educator for 2 years, one thing I have learned is that consistency paves the way for a child to understand what lines can and cannot be crossed. I have caught myself at times not following through with consequences for unwanted behavior, only to have to spend double the time regaining lost ground. Knowing your child or student allows you the advantage of keeping them in safe and secure boundaries. A consequence that is effective for one child will not necessarily work with another. Some children only need "the look" to change an unwanted behavior, while another child will need to sit in time out or miss recess and have a meeting with his/her parents before coming to the realization that the behavior is not only undesirable, but will not be tolerated. I am reminded of a time when I heard a family counselor discussing the fact that you can be sure, when you draw a line, Johnny or Suzie will definitely see how far they can get their big toe over the line. Setting boundaries and staying consistent with consequences will go far in a home or classroom setting.
ReplyDeleteI agree fully with your comments Donna.
DeleteI'm catching up late, so this might be a long post . . .or maybe not. Technically, I'm a high school algebra teacher and thought I'd take this class to work on getting elementary certified. I taught 5 years immediately following college, then worked in an educational organization for the next 14 years, stayed home to be a mom for 3 years and just re-entered the classroom again. My first thought on reading the books and reviewing the posts is WHOA! what have gotten myself into?? It has been WAY too many years since I've had to think about educational theories on classroom discipline. And high school is a little different: we do have discipline issues, but usually they are far a few between. Oh, I might mention also that I now teach in a private school so yes, still some discipline issues, but if parents are paying to send a kid to school, the kids usually know they need to be on their best behavior! With that said, here's a few thoughts. . .
ReplyDeleteThe initial question posed by Mr. Splichal was "what is the significance of knowing?" And my first thought immediately was the principal KNOWS his students. THAT is of the utmost importance! I love the fact that my 9-year-old goes to school and her principal knows that she (my daughter) loves to sing, and play soccer and that her little sister is going to start kindergarten next year and that we have a pet dog! And no, the principal isn't a personal friend of mine but the principal DOES truly make an effort to get to know every student in the school - good or bad. Now the question I would pose back to anyone willing to respond is has the principal used the "knowing' to actually connect with the students are doing the inappropriate deeds? See, I believe that the key is connections. When I meet a student, or even a new friend/acquaintance, I always try to find a connection - something that bonds us and something that we can pull from one another to make a connection. Ms. Olsen knows immediately who the culprits were/are - the key I believe is to find that piece that gives them common ground so she can relate to the students and reach the why (were they bored?) and together find an alternative to the misbehavior (let's walk laps instead? Let's throw rocks in a circle and see who gets the most rocks to land in the target zone.)
The other thing that I find interesting in the reading, but also particularly because of the past year that I had teaching basic algebra to low level kids . . . (remember, I've been out of the classroom awhile!) is maybe not 'learned' behaviors but rather, 'expected' behaviors. It's true if you walk into any school and randomly ask students to name three trouble makers, names would inevitable be repeated. My class of eight this year had three such students whose names would probably have been mentioned nearly by any freshman student. (So much so that when one of my other classes asked who was in my 6th hour class and I named the students the KIDS' response was "that's like a teacher's worst nightmare!") In any case, if students have been 'labeled' with that label, then they often feel they have to live up to it. So a part of me is frustrated that the principal knew who it was and was able to comment, "Let me guess who". It's almost as if the principal was expecting the students to throw rocks 'again'. So again, I truly believe that as a teacher (or principal) it is absolutely vital that we "KNOW" our students, connect with them, find a common ground so there is a link and a personal involvement on behalf of the student and the teacher.
You really covered this well. I recall when I was a substitute teacher that the homeroom teacher would leave a note, and on the note would be a list of "trouble makers". However, my outlook was to not treat them nor act like they would cause me trouble. I would let the class know right off that I would be forming my own opinion of each one of them. Surprisingly, I rarely had a problem. In fact, when I had a long term subbing position the principal would come to my class and ask, "is so and so ok?" My response would be, "yes". He was surprised. I let this student know that I did not come into class expecting him to act out. I told him I believed he would be just fine. After the job was complete I am overjoyed to say this student and I connected and he was one of the most helpful students during this time. Also, he would stop by my house on his way home from school to say "hey". So, I really appreciate you bringing up this side of what students feel may be expected of them when they are labeled.
DeleteIn reading through the post I am struck with why does the principal keep giving detention instead of making the discipline harder? Is this because she doesn't want to upset the parents are they heavy hitters in the school system or what is the deal? In the school that I work at this repeated behavior would have resulted in out of school suspension and it doesn't matter if your a Kindergartner or in High school.
ReplyDeleteThis is definitely a case of learned behavior these students have learned that they will only get detention for their actions, something they obviously don't mind.
They have also learned that they can go to certain areas on the playground where supervision is less. If I was the teachers on the playground I would not allow this certain group to play outside of a given area say the basketball court or the swings. If they could do this and stay out of trouble then I might give privileges back a little at a time but it would have to be proven, trust is a two way street and it has to be earned not just given.
I do agree with some of the earlier post that the best way to get the results that you want is through building relationships with the students a student will not care what you have to teach them until they know you care about them.
Angie I agree. Back at my old high school in a little town where my graduating class was 42. We had the problem with certain people needed to have the right last name in order to get what they want. When it came to sports or just the classroom the "right name" would have it easy or have more playing time. They hardly ever got in trouble. But when someone else messed up the same way they would get punished. A Principal shouldn't have to worry about which parents get mad because of their child acting up. Every student should be treated the same. And since the rock throwing problem has been going on; after the first time the Principal should have had some kids suspended.
ReplyDeleteI actually had a past Principal put me in a very sticky situation because of a name game issue. A particular student that I had as a Para-educator did not have the correct name and did get into trouble a lot but he was also the kid that if he got caught he owned it, the principal accused him of leaving school early I didn't think he did so I asked him them went to the classroom teacher and asked if he ditched after I had left class the teacher and the student both confirmed separate from each other that he had not skipped, leaving me to go back to my boss and basically call the school principal a liar, not the best situation.
DeleteI guess what I am getting at here is the principal essentially answers to the board but they only meet monthly I think that there should be some kind of second opinion or other authority (assistant principal---which our budget has cut) so that if you have repeat offenders it wouldn't be so easy to let them off the hook. Do you that are involved in other school still have assistant principal or does your counselor act as the second voice or none at all? Just curious!
Gloria, it is sad that in some districts students are treated differently because of a last name or family status in the community. In order to change this, it begins with us. Every student must be given the consequence that was laid out at the beginning of the year. That is the importance of establishing a discipline policy and making sure the students are aware of it. As Donna covered a few posts up, it is often the label of being a "bad" student that enables these students to do just that. In my experience working as a paraprofessional in a large high school, simply telling the student that you don't expect any more out of them than you do the other students can help them refocus. I feel in order to help correct bad learned behavior, we need to understand the student's situation. Every student's situation is completely different! I know the principal knows how these particular students act, but I wonder if she really knows the students. In this office visits, is the principal calmly discussing the "whys" of the situation? My father was a Jr. High principal before becoming a superintendent. His strategy was to simply listen. In most cases, one, if not many, of the students are acting out to relieve stress, pressure, or anger. The student may spend a lengthy amount of time in the office but ultimately, forming a relationship helps prevent future behavior. This is true for the teacher also. Checking back regularly to show care for the student can help to discourage future bad behavior. This learned behavior can also become "unlearned".
ReplyDeleteI agree I think it all goes back to the quote "A child will not care what you know, until they know you care" relationships have to be formed before you will truly get anything out of anyone that includes children and adults. People are more willing as a whole to do their best for you if they know you will do yours for them in any situation. I agree that we don't always know what goes on in the administrations office but I still go back to sometimes as the principal your worn down with repeat offenders also and sometimes doing the minimum could be easier then finding a different approach. I could never do the administration job I think it has to be the most unappreciated and hardest job in education so I applaud your father for taking on that challenge
DeleteThe children learned that if no one was paying attention to them over at the trees in the field throwing rocks they could get away with it. Since the consequence was after school detention this did not really solve the problem. These children could have been told to stay out of the specific area where they were throwing the rocks. Also the person in charge of recess could have been told to make sure that these students stayed out of the area where the incident took place.
ReplyDeleteWith every human being there is a judgement of people, sometimes before we even meet them. Teachers and administrators have this as well. It may not be a good thing, but it happens. The students who were throwing rocks knew darn well what they were doing and that it was wrong. Most often they didn't care. A lot of students just don't see anything wrong with doing wrong things. They know the consequences and frankly, the consequences just weren't effective. The teachers and administrators do the cycle over and over again hoping there will be a break. Sometimes it's just out of laziness. If there were normally good kids in that bunch, they might possibly feel the effects and not do it again. Peer pressure is an amazing thing. There is a 50% chance the consequences will have the effect that is intended, but since they've already gotten in "trouble" for this, it most likely won't make a difference. Someone will have to come up with a harsher plan, perhaps including parents if they are able.
ReplyDeleteIt's frustrating because I have worked in the school system where this happens often. The consequences just don't work that are in place.
For some reason my last comment didn't get published so here goes again. Losing recess and serving a detention is a valid punishment for their actions. However, there are other ways to discipline more successfully. Having the guilty students face the car owner is a good start. They didn't think of their actions as affecting someone real. They only thought of their own actions and enjoyment. They lacked honor and self-restraint. Knowing that they damage real property belonging to a real person will help them reflect effectively. I would not be opposed to possible suspension from school as well, seeing that their actions could bring legal consequences. I would involve the parents in this case. Consistency between school discipline and home discipline are very important.
ReplyDeleteHowever, as I said, there are more effective ways for future recesses. The word "discipline" is related to "disciple". Beyond the religious connotation, a disciple is someone committed to an idea or person in an honorable way. These students were not committed to anything honorable. That needs to be rebuilt (or, seemingly, built in the first place). Have a recess is not honorable. Using it is. Before they have another recess, these students should make their activities known before going outside, VERBALLY COMMIT to the recess activity (which could come from them or from the teacher), and carry out the activity honorably and honestly. Make sure they know that if they break their commitment, then they have chosen to receive discipline from the school officials. After the recess is done and they have hopefully fulfilled their commitment, then they should go visit the principal and explain how they have planned and proved a more positive recess experience. Visiting the principal isn't an automatic sign of trouble. Going and telling him how they have behaved positively is a start in the right direction. I have heard that it takes 12 positive encounters to make up for one negative encounters among friends, bosses, teachers, etc. They would be going to see him with a success story instead of him having to find them to punish them. Repeat this "planning/committing/fulfilling/reporting to the principal" approach to recess until they naturally plan their recess activity. His frustration with them will subside as he learns that they value their playground time as well as his position of authority. It would be beneficial for them to spend their current detention time in the presence of the principal to see him do committed work as an example of his self-disciple, which they need to emulate. That way, they appropriately can be self-disciplined disciples who still have recess privileges.
Good Comments Andy! I liked your suggestions and different approach to teaching these rock throwing children how to carry out an activity in an honest and honorable way. These children must not have had similar experiences at home to teach them respect, responsibility and follow through. I plan to tuck your suggestion in my "bag of tricks", and pull it out as a need arises. My Principal will be happy to help, as he is always requesting me to tell him of positives that happen in my classroom involving students he has gotten to know in his office. He has many times called the student to his office to talk with them about something positive that they have done. Many times the students are smiling from ear ro ear when they return from his office after one of these positive encounters.
ReplyDeleteLove your comment Andy. I love this positive approach and can see how the repeated positive comments would be a way of encouraging good behavior rather than the negative or bad behavior. Lifting a student/child up and praising them in front of their peers is a way of changing a students life. As a teacher we can be a source of pushing them in the right direction or heaven forbid in the wrong direction.
ReplyDeleteI didn't include this story in my previous blog because I didn't want it to go too long and lose its luster. I have personal proof of how my suggestion has actually worked for me in the real world.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in high school, I worked summer on the grounds crew for Wisconsin State Fair Park in Milwaukee. Throughout the summer there were small fairs, festivals, and events using the grounds besides the actual state fair in August. Our job was to set up and take down before and after events in the buildings and outdoors on the grounds and at the Milwaukee Mile racetrack grandstands. Anyhoo, we had a supervisor named Terry who liked to give the new/young workers the crummiest jobs. I think he was in charge of rooting out the poor workers in the place. He did a good job :P. I figured this out about him and thought about how to make the work relationship better. Many of us were getting tired of work orders that we knew that he knew were onerous. The work orders were so unlikeable that many of the other guys dragged their feet on the job so that we wouldn't have to endure too many of Terry's terrible tasks. Unfortunately, he realized that we weren't working to our full ability and started coming around during our jobs and telling us to get moving. This made many of the guys want to work less. They devised "the long way around" to get to job areas on the grounds and liked to hide in various buildings after the work order was complete so it took Terry a while to find us. I knew that couldn't go on for any honest length of time. So I made the radical suggestion that after we filled one work order, we should go and try to find Terry to tell him that we were done. They thought I was nuts. They couldn't figure out why I would seek him out because they figured he would just give us more loathsome tasks. But my reason for actively going to Terry was because I thought that if we showed a willingness to report our achievement to him (and for good reason since he was our supervisor), it would prove our worth. I put a twist on it too. Even as lowly workers, we got to know the park grounds really well and we could figure out needed tasks for ourselves just by paying attention to event schedules. So as we sought out Terry after one job, we would talk to each other about other jobs we knew needed doing anyway. Once we found Terry, we reported that one task was done and boldly suggested the next task that we knew needed doing. It worked! Nine times out of ten he would comment on how quickly we finished the task he assigned for us and would agree to our suggested next task. Essentially, we got to choose our own jobs because we put the effort into searching for them. Our willingness to perform was much more successful than hiding between jobs and dragging our feet. Plus, it made Terry's job easier because he didn't have to think up jobs for us anymore. I miss that job.